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| Maxim's Natural Stone Guide; Natural Stones 101 | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 23 2011, 11:14 AM (3,641 Views) | |
| rockbox | Feb 23 2011, 11:14 AM Post #1 |
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The Instigator
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Maxim was kind enough to allow me to post content from his website here. You can find the source at the following location. http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/index...id=46&Itemid=64 [dohtml]<h1>About Natural Stones </h1><br /><p><span style="font-size: small;"><strong>Why use Natural stones?</strong></span></p> <ul> <li><span style="font-size: small;">Sharpening particles of natural stones are uneven in their sizes and the resulting edge's "teeth" will also be uneven, making a knife stay sharper for a longer time as the "teeth' will dull unevenly</span></li> </ul> <ul> <li><span style="font-size: small;">Natural stones dish at a much slower rate then synthetic, so a natural stone will last longer then a synthetic one and doesn't need to be flattened often. A good size natural stone will last a life-time</span></li> </ul> <ul> <li><span style="font-size: small;">Natural stones reimove burr easier than synthetic stones, hence a knife gets much sharper and holds sharpness for much longer</span></li> </ul> <ul> <li><span style="font-size: small;">Natural stones will create a hazy kasumi finish</span></li> </ul> <p><span style="font-size: small;"><br /></span></p> <p><span style="font-size: small;">I work as chef and use my knifes a lot and I can feel a difference in performance when a knife is sharpened on natural or synthetic stones.</span></p> <p><strong>How To Select Stones</strong></p> <p>In general, softer natural stones are more useful for kitchen knives and are easier to use than harder stones, so it is best to start with softer stones and get harder stones as your skills improve. Some very hard and fine stone can scratch soft iron (jigane) but not hard steel (hagane), <strong>that is not because stone is bad</strong> but cause steel is softer then stone it self. So you have to use them with care and use these stones only with slurry and light pressure. This hard and fine stone usually the most rare and expensive stones. These stones are very good for tools and razors.</p> <p>I will not talk much here about stones from rare mines and stratas, as I think most important is to get a stone that works best on your knife or razor, and it might not matter as much which mine and strata it comes from.</p> <p>However, for clarification purpose, all stones on the website will include a name of the mine (i.e. Ohira), a strata the stone was mined from (i.e. Tomae), an appearance (i.e. Asagi), and a hardness level (Lv 3). A cutting ability of a stone will also be noted.</p> <p> </p> <p>1. Mine (Nakayama, Ohira, Hakka, etc.)</p> <p>2. Strata (Tenjyou, Namito, Tomae, etc.)</p> <p>3. Appearance (Kiita, Karasu, Asagi, etc.)</p> <p>4. Stone Level (Lv1 - Lv 5, Lv 5 - hardest)</p> <p>So example will be:</p> <p>Ohira Tomae Lv 2</p> <p>Nakayama Asagi Lv 5</p> <p>Shinden Suita Renge Lv 3.5</p> <p> </p> <h3>Stratas</h3> <p>From soft on top and very hard on the button.</p> <p> </p> <p><img src="http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/images/stories/gora3-01.jpg" border="0" /></p> <p> </p> <p> </p> <h3>Natural Stone Quarries</h3> <h3><strong class="caption"><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><br /></span></strong></h3> <p>Nakayama 中山</p> <p>Mizukihara 水木原</p> <p>Oohira 大平</p> <p>Okudo 奥殿</p> <p>Shoubudani 菖蒲谷</p> <p>Oozuku 大突</p> <p>Shinden 新田</p> <p>Nartuaki - 鳴滝 (also has 2 meaning: mine name and east mines)</p> <p>Kouzaki 神前</p> <p>Hideriyama 日照山</p> <p>Atagoyama</p> <p>Yaginoshima 八木ノ嶋</p> <p>Hakka 八箇</p> <p>Sororo</p> <p>Ozaki 尾崎</p> <p>Okunomon 奥ノ門</p> <p>Takashima 高島</p> <p>Wakasa: near Fukui mountain name is Miyama</p> <p>Shiroto: connected to Oozuku</p> <p>Maruoyama: <a href="http://www.toishi.jp" target="_blank">http://www.toishi.jp</a></p> <p>Yaginoshima 八木の嶋</p> <p> </p> <h3>Natural stones glossary (Appearance)</h3> <h3><strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><br /></span></strong></h3> <p><strong>Karasu</strong></p> <p>Is sometimes found below Aisa strata, in a thin layer that is not always present, so Karasu is rare. The black marks is mica which has strong cutting strength, so Karasu which are extremely dark, are also scratchy. But good Karasu stones are supposed to be good.</p> <p><img src="http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/images/stories/p1060499.jpg" border="0" width="267" height="200" /></p> <p>pics. of light Karasu</p> <p><strong>Renge</strong></p> <p>Means lotus flower, which refers to the lotus flower-like pattern which is often pink to purplish color and gives higher cutting strength. Renge is only found in Suita stratas.</p> <p><img src="http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/images/stories/p1060480.jpg" border="0" width="267" height="200" /></p> <p><strong>Habutae</strong></p> <p>(rice cake) almost pure white stone very rare often is Shiro Suita .</p> <p><strong>Nashiji</strong></p> <p>(Pear skin) Refers to the small whitish dots. The dots have stronger cutting strength.</p> <p><img src="http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/images/stories/p1070806.jpg" border="0" width="300" height="200" /></p> <p><strong>Kan</strong></p> <p>Means Rings. When the contrast between rings light and dark is too strong it tends to be scratchy, but when it is light, it induces more cutting strength.</p> <p><strong>Su</strong></p> <p>(the holes) found in Suita</p> <p><img src="http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/images/stories/p1060507.jpg" border="0" width="267" height="200" /></p> <p><strong>Kiita</strong></p> <p>Yellow stone is the most popular color of Nayayama stone very good stones for knives and pre. polisher for razors</p> <p><img src="http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/images/stories/dsc_0833.jpg" border="0" width="301" height="200" /></p> <p><strong>Asagi</strong></p> <p>Next popular stone after Kitta it means light blue. It is often called Tamago (egg) color. Asagi is found in Namito and Aisa stratum and has high cutting strength, but lacks the lines or Su the holes found in Suita. Usually Asagis are too scratchy, but they can be very good when its good quality! The best stones for razors if they are hard but i use mine to make micro bevel on my knives too :)</p> <p><img src="http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/images/stories/326867253_o.jpg" border="0" width="267" height="200" /></p> <p><strong>Goma </strong>(sesame)</p> <p>Black spots on the stone that can scratch soft steel but with Nagura and for Honyaki it ads more cutting power</p> <p><img src="http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/images/stories/p1060484.jpg" border="0" width="267" height="200" /></p> <p><strong>Momiji</strong> (Maple leaves)</p> <p>comes from the suita layer</p> <p><strong>Su nashi</strong></p> <p>means suita without su</p> <p> </p> <h3>Little about Mikawa Shiro Naguras</h3> <p>There are 4 strata</p> <p>from finest to coarsest</p> <p>Koma, Mejiro, Tenjyou, Botan</p> <p>コマ ( 細 ) 、目白 ( めじろ ), 天上 ( てんじょう ) 、ボタン、</p> <p>And 4 grades</p> <p>Superior high grade, High grade, Superior selected grade, Superior grade</p> <p>特級上、特級、別上、上級</p> <p>Koma is most fine in grit but Botan, Tenjyou and Mejiri is fine too and its not much difference for knife sharpening</p> <p> </p> <h3>Aizu</h3> <p>Aizu it is mid. range natural stone like Aoto 3k to 5 k stone.</p> <p>I was a bit skeptical about it because i never heard about it and never seen one. But result was very good. I am very in love with this stone now !!!! It is not a Kyoto stone but North Japan stone. It was mined in summer and in winter they cut the stones in house but it was very cold outside all windows was closed so all worker got lung disease and died around 1950, so no more made after 1950th. Stone was used for agriculture tools etc. And was not as popular as Aoto so it is a lot cheaper. I have compared it with my best Aoto that is very old and good stone too.</p> <p>It is harder then my Aoto so it wears slower. It cuts faster and finish is same i will say maybe a bit finer. But where i was very surprised is was on my Honyaki and SS knifes.</p> <p>Aoto cuts Honyaki knifes very slow but Aizu was incredible fast</p> <p>Here are some pics.</p> <p> </p> <p><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_KNF2TSFHAWs/TF7MDpjJxnI/AAAAAAAAIMc/3dlZnrkvh1o/s720/P1070820.JPG" border="0" alt="Aizu" title="Aizu" width="720" height="480" /></p> <p><img src="http://lh4.ggpht.com/_KNF2TSFHAWs/TF7MG28K-6I/AAAAAAAAIMg/CEBSHUe8v5g/s720/P1070821.JPG" border="0" alt="Aizu" title="Aizu" width="720" height="480" /></p> <p><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_KNF2TSFHAWs/TF7MN1LsYKI/AAAAAAAAIMk/WefV0eX8XuA/s720/P1070884.JPG" border="0" alt="Aizu" title="Aizu" width="720" height="480" /></p> <p><img src="http://lh5.ggpht.com/_KNF2TSFHAWs/TF7MS4pPM4I/AAAAAAAAIMo/zidU-nRCgtw/s720/P1070885.JPG" border="0" alt="Aizu" title="Aizu" width="720" height="480" /></p> <p><img src="http://lh6.ggpht.com/_KNF2TSFHAWs/TF7MWAcreaI/AAAAAAAAIMs/37mFTT_gpvs/s720/P1070889.JPG" border="0" alt="Aizu" title="Aizu" width="720" height="480" /></p> </li> </ul> <div class="clear"><!-- --></div> </div> </div></div> <div class="clear"><!-- --></div> </div> </div> [/dohtml] |
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| rockbox | Feb 23 2011, 11:17 AM Post #2 |
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The Instigator
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http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/index...id=47&Itemid=65 [dohtml] <h1>How to use </h1><br /><p><strong>Mud is your helper. :)<br /></strong></p> <p>Natural stones differ from synthetic in a number of ways.</p> <p>They are much harder and a finish on knives will be uneven if sharpened on them without mud.</p> <p>The abrasives particles on synthetic stones do not break down to smaller grit sizes particles, but on natural stones they do, so the finish on natural stones will be much finer than on synthetic stones in a similar grit. That's why it is very important to use natural stones with mud.</p> <p>Sometimes natural stones have toxic cracks, holes and lines with harder particles that might scratch a steel. You have to dig them out with a small chisel or a knife, to make you stone usable.</p> <p><span style="text-decoration: underline;">On this website I will rate stone on the following criteria:<br /></span></p> <p><strong>Hardness:</strong> From Softest 1 to Hardest 5</p> <p><strong>Grit: </strong>Coarsest 1 to Finest 5</p> <p><strong>Cutting Speed:</strong> Slowest 1 to Fastest 5</p> <p><strong>Difficulty to Use: </strong>Easy 1 to Difficult 5</p> <p> </p> <p><strong>Tips and Advice </strong></p> <p>1. Always keep you natural stone clean.</p> <p>2. Keep you natural stone flat to avoid scratching your knife.</p> <p>3. Flatten you stone with a diamond stone or a sandpaper (1000 grit), but use another natural stone for final flattening surface need to be as smooth as possible .</p> <p>4. Very important to wash you stone after flattening, as residual abrasives from your flattening source might scratch your knife if not washed away.</p> <p>5. Wash you stone after every sharpening.</p> <p>6. Do not use water that have been in contact with synthetic stones.</p> <p>7. When sharpening or polishing a knife or razor, use as little water as possible. Just a drop of water from your finger tip is enough for harder stones and more water on softer stones. The mud should be in a form of a paste.</p> <p>8. Always rinse your knife or razor before and after sharpening.</p> <p>9. Use Nagura or other Natural stone (as nagura) to make mud on harder stones or it might scratch soft iron (jighane) on your knife.</p> <p>10.Always use mud, when polishing or sharpening with natural stones. Using natural stones without mud, will not give you best results. On very hard naturals for razors it can be good to use with only water at last honing.</p> <p>11. Lacquer your stone on the sides and the bottom to reinforce it. If a stone has a crack, you should glue it to a wooden base, to prevent the crack from getting wider.</p> <p>12. Use small soft stones, fingers stones on a soft iron (jigane) and harder stones on a hard steel (hagane). If a knife is made of mono-steel, or it is a Honyaki knife, softer stones might be better.</p> <p><span id="eow-title" style="outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-size: 0.9166em; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; letter-spacing: -0.5px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: 0px initial initial;" title="Japanese Razor sharpening Nakayamas and Ozuko part 1" dir="ltr"><strong>Japanese Razor sharpening Nakayamas and Ozuko part 1</strong></span></p> <p><span style="outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-size: 0.9166em; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; letter-spacing: -0.5px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: 0px initial initial;" title="Japanese Razor sharpening Nakayamas and Ozuko part 1" dir="ltr"><strong><br /></strong> <object width="480" height="385" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/xd3n_l0myYU?fs=1&hl=da_DK&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> <param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /> <param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xd3n_l0myYU?fs=1&hl=da_DK&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999" /> <param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /> </object> </span></p> <p><span id="eow-title" style="outline-width: 0px; outline-style: initial; outline-color: initial; font-size: 0.9166em; background-image: initial; background-attachment: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; background-color: transparent; letter-spacing: -0.5px; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial; padding: 0px; margin: 0px; border: 0px initial initial;" title="Japanese Razor sharpening Nakayamas and Ozuko part 2" dir="ltr"><strong>Japanese Razor sharpening Nakayamas and Ozuko part 2</strong></span></p> <p><span style="font-size: small;"> <object width="480" height="385" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/0zVawUS9D5w?fs=1&hl=da_DK&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> <param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /> <param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/0zVawUS9D5w?fs=1&hl=da_DK&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999" /> <param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /> </object> <strong><br /></strong></span></p> <p><strong>Japanese razor sharpening</strong></p> <p> <object width="480" height="385" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/QMXOnbOy2z8?fs=1&hl=da_DK&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> <param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /> <param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QMXOnbOy2z8?fs=1&hl=da_DK&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999" /> <param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /> </object> </p> <p><strong> </strong></p> <p><strong>Stones Test</strong></p> <p> <object width="480" height="385" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/PP3GVmfgZfE?fs=1&hl=da_DK&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> <param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /> <param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PP3GVmfgZfE?fs=1&hl=da_DK&color1=0x3a3a3a&color2=0x999999" /> <param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /> </object> </p> <p><strong> </strong></p> <p><strong> </strong><strong> </strong></p> <p><strong>Some sharpening videos with Natural stones </strong></p> <p><strong> </strong></p> <p> <object width="425" height="350" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/mjVhR-TJsdE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> <param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/mjVhR-TJsdE" /> </object> </p> <p> <object width="425" height="350" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/bWX201lAcLs&feature" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> <param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bWX201lAcLs&feature" /> </object> </p> <p> <object width="425" height="350" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/YNKWN2KE9pE&feature" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> <param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/YNKWN2KE9pE&feature" /> </object> </p> <p> <object width="425" height="350" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/njJQJsCxOhE&feature" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> <param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/njJQJsCxOhE&feature" /> </object> </p> <p> <object width="425" height="350" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/28FJIBcHjSc&feature" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> <param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/28FJIBcHjSc&feature" /> </object> </p> <p> </p> <p><strong>How to use Nagura on harder stones</strong></p> <p> <object width="425" height="350" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/KXRtdNHOKFI&feature" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> <param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KXRtdNHOKFI&feature" /> </object> </p> <p> </p> <p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>Sharpening on Natural stones Hamaguriba edge on Tanaka Yanagi</strong></span></p> <p>Part 1</p> <p> <object width="425" height="350" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/XbX85TGw-2E" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> <param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/XbX85TGw-2E" /> </object> </p> <p>Part 2</p> <p> <object width="425" height="350" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/NGWTHyxh8v4&feature" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> <param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/NGWTHyxh8v4&feature" /> </object> </p> <p>Part 3</p> <p> <object width="425" height="350" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/EJex7maGGnM&feature" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> <param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EJex7maGGnM&feature" /> </object> </p> <p>Part 4</p> <p> <object width="425" height="350" data="http://www.youtube.com/v/_47DI-vNpys&feature" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> <param name="src" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_47DI-vNpys&feature" /> </object> </p> </li> </ul> <div class="clear"><!-- --></div> </div> </div></div> <div class="clear"><!-- --></div> </div> </div> [/dohtml] |
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| tk59 | Feb 23 2011, 11:22 AM Post #3 |
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Line Cook
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Awesome! I hadn't seen this before. |
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| eto | Feb 23 2011, 11:41 AM Post #4 |
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Dish Washer
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This is great thanks for sharing, so much to read and video watching to do now. |
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| aaronsgibson | Feb 23 2011, 11:54 AM Post #5 |
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Prep Cook
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Seen all of your videos and they helped me with my first natural. I'm lucky that I'm not sitting on a stock pile of cash or I would be ordering stones from you. Maybe in the future. |
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| rockbox | Feb 23 2011, 12:00 PM Post #6 |
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The Instigator
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Maxim is the godfather of natural stones and we are lucky to have him on the board. |
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| Maxim | Feb 23 2011, 12:17 PM Post #7 |
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Dish Washer
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Thank you all guys !!! :) My main reason that i start my website was that i thought there was to little info about Natural stones on net and prices was to high. More videos and info will come :) |
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| watercrawl | Feb 23 2011, 12:59 PM Post #8 |
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Line Cook
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I just got out of the natural stone world....threads like this make it hard to stay out. Great information here. |
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| mainaman | Feb 23 2011, 05:02 PM Post #9 |
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Dish Washer
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I know majority of people are maybe skeptical of natural stones, but ever since I switched to full natural progression a year a go I am convinced this is a great way to go. I use synthetics up to 1k , then from there all naturals. Natural stones are more expensive but they have so much more to offer, they wear much slower than synthetics too. Natural stones leave shallower scratches on the steel, abrasive speed can be very good especially counting the fact the grit breaks down to effectively substitute for several synthetics. One major advantage of natural stones is the finish one can achieve on traditional knives, also lack of wire edge if the stones are used properly. |
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| Maxim | Feb 24 2011, 08:40 AM Post #10 |
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Dish Washer
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If you all have some questions about Natural stones, you can post them here and i or Jon or anyone will try to answer them as good as we can in this sticky :) Then we can get very good info post about Naturals ! |
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| Tom_V | Feb 24 2011, 09:15 AM Post #11 |
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Dish Washer
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I mostly hear about the Naturals in the 4-20K grit range. Are there good naturals in the 1K range. I'm in the market for a new 1K stone and what is available in that range and what I should look for. Edit: This is rockbox btw, I have this account so I see the board how members see it. Its my test account. |
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| Maxim | Feb 24 2011, 09:38 AM Post #12 |
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Dish Washer
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There are some nat that is 1 k like Jyo-Haku, Binsu, Aizu, Amakusa and Iyo But all of them is to expensive and very rare to find a good one they are very slow too :( I will always recommend to take synthetic instead they cost less and much more faster. But if you want to play with some of them i will recommend Iyo from 330mate or Amakusa. The Aizu is the best of them but they are impossible to find :( |
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| JBroida | Feb 24 2011, 12:45 PM Post #13 |
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Crack Dealer
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yeah... what he said... most experts and professionals will recommend synthetic coarse and medium stones. Sometimes people start with naturals from the 2000-3000+ range, but many just use them as awasedo (final touch) stones Amakusa can sometimes be found for a very good price... aizu are just fun, but finding a good one and finding a good price are very difficult tasks also, alot of the naturals in the 1000 grit range or lower tend to dish a bit faster than higher grit naturals |
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| 20171128yuanyuan | Nov 27 2017, 07:38 PM Post #14 |
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Prep Cook
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| xiaozheng6666 | Feb 26 2018, 07:04 PM Post #15 |
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